Reduced Creep collision size, how does it affect you?

[Ironfisto]

Well, this is going to be my last post topic for now before i stop dota.

Basically, with the smaller collision size, i find last hitting a little more troublesome. Firstly, its harder to aim them. Second, when they squeeze together at the same spot, its even harder to aim them.
But for heroes with cleaving attacks, hed benefit alot. Would that make Battle fury more popular?

On another note, i notice that when treant cast his living armor on Skele King, the root is obscenely huge compared to when he cast it on himself. The reason is not to be confused with collision size of the hero. The actual factor that determines that is in fact the model size. Treant has a model size factor of 1.00 i believe, cos its simply the same size as the movable night elf tower in ladder. Whereas SK uses the 'raise skeleton abilty' skeleton from the Drow's arrow ability. Judging from the size, i think it has 2.00-3.00 size factor.

So dont get confused collision size = model size , ya!

Certain heroes looks large but in fact has a small collision size, eg THD. This means that it is easier for him to squeeze thorugh small passages. Using BKB increases your collision size, and so you are more prone to get stuck. Hero selection is based on model size, so THD is quite easy to select. Thats why casting rabid on bear and using a small model size hero such as SA to 'hide' under this monster is a neat trick.


Open for discussion.





ps: Bye bye Dota!

[CrimsonBlack]

What the hell...means I cannot bug you for match already..

[King4hao]

you are not going to quite such a nice game just because of design flaw?

From what i know,Icefrog don't intend to change what BH is right now.Perharp he intend to present BH as what he is right now - the hard to click ass
Regarding to last hitting,you can switch your view by moving your screen upward.If not,pressing on [???] will switch the view.

[Reya]

you are not going to quite such a nice game just because of design flaw?

From what i know,Icefrog don't intend to change what BH is right now.Perharp he intend to present BH as what he is right now - the hard to click ass
Regarding to last hitting,you can switch your view by moving your screen upward.If not,pressing on [???] will switch the view.

pressing on what ?!?

BH is a little harder to click because his own designed char was skinny.. well you need to click on their bodies, not their hands or something and BH was skinny.
just like treant, i personally find TREANT hard to click too, well, only for me.
and also SK has factor of 2.00 or 3.00, whats the difference? Even though treant's living armour has bigger image on SK then other heroes, i dont see why it affects the vision, maybe you could try CM's frostbite on SK x)
For the last hitting part, thats actually your own fault, it depends on your 'micro-ness' and even though they do SQUEEZE sometime, missing 1 or 2 kills/denies isnt much of a fuss isnt it ? and NO, i dont think battlefury is still yet to be famous.

[Ironfisto]

Sorry eh, i deleted the part on BH. I found it irrelevant cos that was a problem long time ago before his model/collision size was fixed.

Vision, what vision.

You even sound like flaming someone -_-

Anyway, i quite wonder if controlled creeps from chen, echant, or items have near zero collision size. They always seem to merge together when attacking the same target. Quite funny to see 3 in 1 centaurs...

[StripperA]

hide small hero with a rabid bear..cool..

[CrimsonBlack]

you know last time there was this BS next to his ally THD with 100 hp...but i tried so hard to click on the bloodseeker but i kept clicking on thd and ended up dying..

[Allure-]

Seems like "collision size" isn't affecting how much the units bump into each other. Units with 400 collision size can stand just as close to each other as units with 16 collision size. From other tests, how much units bump into each other also seems unaffected by selection circle size and by model size. So then what does make units "bump into each other" more? What makes Pudge harder to maneuver around creeps than SA, or is that just a myth?

From Mechanics Conference.

[freshie]

pressing on what ?!?

BH is a little harder to click because his own designed char was skinny.. well you need to click on their bodies, not their hands or something and BH was skinny.
just like treant, i personally find TREANT hard to click too, well, only for me.
and also SK has factor of 2.00 or 3.00, whats the difference? Even though treant's living armour has bigger image on SK then other heroes, i dont see why it affects the vision, maybe you could try CM's frostbite on SK x)
For the last hitting part, thats actually your own fault, it depends on your 'micro-ness' and even though they do SQUEEZE sometime, missing 1 or 2 kills/denies isnt much of a fuss isnt it ? and NO, i dont think battlefury is still yet to be famous.

actually clicking on the model itself has nothing to with the size of the model, it is the size of the selection scale. That means you can have some heroes 10x the size of roshan but selection scale is only 0.1 (default = 1.0), still it is very hard to click, or the other way round you can have something very small, only 10% size of a chicken, yet with a selection scale of 2.0, even u click somewhere near it, you will still be able to click it.

this is a more obvious problem in custom games like TD when you build all of them as close as possible, you will have big problem when trying to click those with smaller selection scale. Or always select those with big scale when you are actually clicking onto something 2 square next to it.

icefrog should balance the selection scale of some heroes which have much smaller selection scale then the rest. Some of these i hate are bane, BH and treant.

[StripperA]

talking bout size, some hero damn hard to click on when orb walking..like bane and bounty hunter...

[CrimsonBlack]

yep..freshie is mapmaker or...why know selection scale lol =X

[<3dwarf]

whats the best way to farm, using 'S' key or juz moving around and attack

[StripperA]

dig a hole, plant the seed then farm..

[Ironfisto]

The most recent discussion on collision size is by Grujah.Noob
Link : http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=125907 (http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=125907)
I read this topic long ago but forgotten about it.
Anyway, he states that there are 3 independent variables

1) Unit size (i call it model size)
- it affects the visual size of the unit, its clickability(usually, as long as the cursor is over the image, it will select), and lastly the living growth effect on SK vs Treant idea.

2) Selection size (green circle below the unit when selected)
- independent. Neither affects collision size nor model size in any way

3) Collision size (the actual physical representation of the unit)
- Collision size affects a lot of things. Since it is the actual representation of the unit size, attacks and damages are usually inflicted as long as the spell/ability touches at least the edge of the collision size.

Sadly enough, the mystery on collision size has still yet to be solved. No one has yet to come up with a detailed database of each and every unit collision size as opposed to the cast/attack swing/backswing guide.


Implications of collision size

1) Attack Range - A widely accepted idea is that the range (eg 600) is measured from edge to edge of the unit's collision size. You can imagine the two collision size as a pair of circles. Hence, from edge of circle to the other edge

2) If you are a Pudge or Potm user, you will realise that it is easier to hook/stun Tiny than SA. The factor that determines a hit is the collision size (note that hook and arrow has collision size too. So as long as the edges of the two circles touches, its a hit).
While it is true that collision size is independent of model/unit size, they are probably close to being the same. I definitely cant imagine a fully grown Tiny having a collision size equivalent of a SA model size. He will look obscenely misleading.

3) AoE Spells - Unlike attack range, the AOE is calculated from the centre of the collision size to the edge = radius of AOE. When you say 600 AOE, 600 refers to radius. Judicator INSIST that it refers to radius...that baka. To prove that, play in single player mode, and choose obsidian. Level him up to 16, learn the first level Ulti. The AOE is 400. Adding subsequent levels will make it 500, 600. The same theory applies, as long as the edge of the AOE touches the edge of the unit collision size, the effect triggers.

So how about non-targetable AOE spells like Centaurs stomp. In my opinion, assuming SA has the same warstomp as centaur and his collision size is much much smaller than Centaurs, he will have a more effective stomp. Why?
Since, the collision size for centaur is larger, SA will have a larger 'hittable' area (If AOE of stomp is 225, you take the big circle (225) minus the small circle (collision size))
Anyway, collision size affects how close you can be near another unit. You can only touch edge to edge, not overlapping circles.

4) Is the green circle (selection circle) equivalent to collision size?
Since it is independent, answer is no. I believe icefrog has made it such that Scourge ghouls and sentinel treants have similar collision size. When you play a game, you will notice that the green circle of treants may overlap each other and the treants' models seem overlapping too. (due to recent changes). Ghouls on the other hand have smaller models but they cant overlap (because the collision size is larger i believe), which shows evidence that model size/collision size/selection size are indenpendent of each other.

5) It is believed that when CM cast freezing field, larger units gets hit more often assuming that each nova has its own collision size. Again, as long as the edge touches/overlaps, it is considered a hit. But some people said it has something to do with dummy units, which i didnt really follow. So i cant confirm which is which.

6) In ladder, a popular method of killing heroes is the 'surround and trap' method. The most basic strategy is to use bunch of footman to surround the hero. Huntress(Luna) has a larger collision size than footmen, while Mountain Giant(Tiny) has an even larger collision size. This means that it will require less units to completly surround the enemy hero as collision size grows larger. Another popular strategy is to create a meatwall to protect your range units from enemy attacks. Lining up mountain giants in a straight line is an efficient way to form a long barrier. In dota, this can be applied to spiderlings which can effectively surround/trap enemy heroes.


ps: last post bye!
feel free to discuss, no flaming ya.

[StripperA]

k, let professor do his job~

[freshie]

yep..freshie is mapmaker or...why know selection scale lol =X

use to make maps long ago, even before TFT is out. Quit making maps due to me being sucks in jass script, only can play with GUI. Without good knowledge of jass, what you can do is limited. DOTA is almost 100% jass coded.

Collision size is the actual size of the model while model size is just visual. Main thing collision size affect is movement, it will be harder to move around and easily trapped if you have big collision size, 1 good example is tidehunter. Dont charge in with alot of creeps behind you, very often when you need a retreat it get stuck easily, because of his large collision size, it needs to move around more, also with his slow turning speed, it make things worst. Heroes like tide really need to move him point to point to get out of being block or trap by creeps. If you just click somewhere behind, sometime you can see him walking left and right.

AOE hitting big collision size more and easier i am not so sure about it. Probably yes or maybe no. If you have play some TD, some of them the creeps just cluster all close together like a lump, this is done by 0 collision size, which means they can even walk thru the front creep if they are slowed or stunned. But AOE towers are still hitting all of them even they are 0 collision. So not too sure about AOE hit big collision more.

suat la, just play la.

[StripperA]

make a new map to rival dota!

[<3dwarf]

make a new map to rival dota!

impossible!

[StripperA]

then play monopoly with me! warcraft monopoly

[IamSaD]

then play monopoly with me! warcraft monopoly
u tok cock u cannot host

[freshie]

make a new map to rival dota!

Not worth to do it honestly. In fact i have made a DOTA like game even before DOTA. At that time the only similar map is 3 corridors, then later there are other maps like rival nations.
Making a map is not difficult, having ideas is also not difficult. Hardest part is to balance it, which might takes up 2/3 of the time just to do testing and make sure no imba, or at least not so imba with certain heroes and items.

2nd thing is you need to know alot of jass, not just the GUI inside the editor which i am suck at it.

3rd thing is due to warcraft 3 engine itself, there is alot of restriction. If you put in too much custom fancy spell or skills, it will really cause alot of lag and delay which will spoil the smoothness of the game. If you have play games like anime fight you will realise the skill are more fancy but if those skill animation if added to DOTA, that will deifinitely create alot of freezing during game.

[StripperA]

ok i'm in a course to learn stuff bout this, if anything i'll ask u ok? great freshie guru..hahaha

[Reya]

impossible!

its possible, just that no one will want to try other's map because they are addicted to dota (:
and i believe there are more fun maps then dota, just that we haven find it out.

[StripperA]

other maps that are more fun? MONOPOLY..

[B|a h x 3 `]

auther party .

[StripperA]

my favourite is the digging game~..dig dig dig then the bastard come and whack u..can sabo ppl

[Reya]

that dig game.. go die la.. u all sabo one !!

[B|a h x 3 `]

dig dig dig dig dig dig dig o.O!? dig wat

[StripperA]

the dune worm la..dig hole then build barrack block only..i always first one to die..zzz

[IamSaD]

the dune worm la..dig hole then build barrack block only..i always first one to die..zzz
oh tat one O™ awas win cos he is worm

[kimpi]

oh tat one O™ awas win cos he is worm
no no no no.. coz he pro.. veno 22

[StripperA]

he only can play veno ah, that worm

[CrimsonBlack]

ok i'm in a course to learn stuff bout this, if anything i'll ask u ok? great freshie guru..hahaha

Why never ask me? I your boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss boss and I also know how...=X

[StripperA]

ok i ask u next time..

[CrimsonBlack]

=X l0ls but I lack JASS knowledge...freshie know jass?

[StripperA]

he probably know, hes the freshie guru ^^

[freshie]

sorry to disappoint u but i am totally NOOB in jass, i can only modified from existing ones but to write the script myself it is no no no. And thats the main reason i stop map making for warcraft 3. GUI is much easier to play with but what it can do is really limited. Alot of them can learn from map done by other people. 1 example of GUI is random % orb effect attack like maim or maelstrom, the GUI trigger would be like:

Event - A unit is attacked
Conditions - Attacking unit has item <orbeffect_item>
Actions
If random integer(1,100)<=25 then
set orbloc = location of (attacking unit)
create 1 (dummy unit) at (orbloc), facing (facing of attacking unit) degrees
order (last created unit) to <orb_ability> attacked unit.

1 simple trigger like this sometime can take up to hours of testing and editing. So creating a map your interest plays a big part, if not you will give up easily.

btw i am really not guru, guru are the ones you ask how something is done, they can come up with the triggers or jass in like 5 sec to 1 min. I have to do alot of testing and lucky 10 mins, most of the time 20-30 mins - give up.

[StripperA]

ok i dun even know what is jass, some girl's name? lol..okay anything i consult the great freshie next time..

[CrimsonBlack]

sorry to disappoint u but i am totally NOOB in jass, i can only modified from existing ones but to write the script myself it is no no no. And thats the main reason i stop map making for warcraft 3. GUI is much easier to play with but what it can do is really limited. Alot of them can learn from map done by other people. 1 example of GUI is random % orb effect attack like maim or maelstrom, the GUI trigger would be like:

Event - A unit is attacked
Conditions - Attacking unit has item <orbeffect_item>
Actions
If random integer(1,100)<=25 then
set orbloc = location of (attacking unit)
create 1 (dummy unit) at (orbloc), facing (facing of attacking unit) degrees
order (last created unit) to <orb_ability> attacked unit.

1 simple trigger like this sometime can take up to hours of testing and editing. So creating a map your interest plays a big part, if not you will give up easily.

btw i am really not guru, guru are the ones you ask how something is done, they can come up with the triggers or jass in like 5 sec to 1 min. I have to do alot of testing and lucky 10 mins, most of the time 20-30 mins - give up.

I've always thought maelstorm was from the orb of lightning ability, you'll just need to adjust the chance and change the ability from purge to chain lightning. However my method here has a flaw...doesn't trigger if it is not an issued attack... an example is Germinate attack...It is using an orb of lightning effect ability..but with a 100% chance to cast searing arrows(projectile replaced) which deals 0 extra damage.. Maim is like orb of slow, it has chance to slow, however the buff animation is replaced with a blood effect...peasant blood i guess?

[StripperA]

crimmy when i learn more liao from my poly, let's make a map..LOL

[CrimsonBlack]

WTF poly got mapping class or...btw JASS is not taught in school as its rather useless.. JASS is also coding for cs maps i believe? My teacher used to map for CS lol.

[freshie]

I've always thought maelstorm was from the orb of lightning ability, you'll just need to adjust the chance and change the ability from purge to chain lightning. However my method here has a flaw...doesn't trigger if it is not an issued attack... an example is Germinate attack...It is using an orb of lightning effect ability..but with a 100% chance to cast searing arrows(projectile replaced) which deals 0 extra damage.. Maim is like orb of slow, it has chance to slow, however the buff animation is replaced with a blood effect...peasant blood i guess?

no, it is what i have posted. you have to do a random % of integer then if it falls below the % like less then 16%, then they will create a dummy unit to cast a chain lightning to the target.

Basically DOTA is full of dummy units. If you try to play those older maps, you will be able to see these dummy units on the minimap, 1 good example is CM casting freezing field, u see the minimap alot of unit popping in and out. They are casting frost nova at random location.

[Ironfisto]

So what does triggers and dummy units have to do with collision size?

Ooo...

[charaeb]

again, naive. u can EASILY farm or deny and click properly if u move ur camera? as in moving ur mouse around the screen so u can get a better view. or do u juz stay at the same view always?go try out things before always posting in the forum. i mean so what if u know all about mechanics and the model size blah blah blah. its juz another part of dota which DOES not really affect ur skill but just ur knowledge. its just like u can learn how to play dota from a textbook. - -

[Ironfisto]

Hehehe... a criticism.

Im sorry if that is your opinion, I dont wish to argue back.
Cos im quitting Dota in 2 days time ..Weee
Im only hanging because I still have some unfinished dota-related task due in 2 days time :)

[<3dwarf]

lets create a map that consists of all the dotasg people!

[StripperA]

that'll be good..give me a year and a half..i just might make that..when I learnt enough of course..

[charaeb]

ive played with u before and........ forget it since ur qutting

[<3dwarf]

lols, my posts per day improve! wee~! i think dat the more they reduce creep collision size, the better it proves whether your farming method is good or not

[Reya]

lols, my posts per day improve! wee~! i think dat the more they reduce creep collision size, the better it proves whether your farming method is good or not

this proves your the next generation of dan..

[<3dwarf]

no this prove dat im better than him

[Reya]

second generation la..
or should i say third

[StripperA]

lol reya's from the 1st.. ^^

[Reya]

no, its carrot =x

[StripperA]

carrot 1st reya 2nd gen, stripper 3rd gen, dwarf 4th gen, 5th gen???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Reya]

i not a spammer loh..
i only high post

[StripperA]

yaya dun group the likes of me with u right, lol

[<3dwarf]

carrot 1st reya 2nd gen, stripper 3rd gen, dwarf 4th gen, 5th gen???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you think wad, hokage or?

[CrimsonBlack]

Where is me??? I was earlier than reya..

[Ironfisto]

The fifth must be a girl!
lol

[Reya]

Where is me??? I was earlier than reya..

earlier but slower

[StripperA]

hahahahaha, nice one..

[s[ky]h4rtx]

lola .. lmao

[StripperA]

reduced creep collision size means = ???