TFL Week 1 Enervate Gaming(eNe) vs Zenith

[Prince-of-Lies]

You can actually find this replay from the TFL site but for the convenience of some of those looking for the replay i will link it here.(I tried to attach the replay directly but it keeps saying invalid link so i had to use a link).
replay link:http://gg-no-re.com/browse.php?q=game&gameid=596 (http://gg-no-re.com/browse.php?q=game&gameid=596)

Sentinel:
eNe.Hustler (Tormented Soul/Top)
eNe.j0o (Sand King/Top)
eNe.007 (Vengeful Spirit/Top)
enigma_2008 (Doom Bringer/Mid)
eNe.Eddie (Shadow Fiend/Bot)

Scourge:
ToFuBoi- (Queen of Pain/Top)
xMusiCa (Warlock/Mid)
AntSharK (Lone Druid/Bot)
iceiceice (Stone Giant/Bot)
L- (Twin Head Dragon/Bot)

Basically early game consisted of alot of attempted gankings and kills scored for both sides,with the VS for eNe and tiny for Zenith floating around.eNe controlled top with a formidable tri-lane while the lone druid farmed neutrals most of the time.SF eventually started farming when he was 1v1 against thd or tiny and Zenith's heroes were involved in the other areas of the map.eNe starts to pull a slight advantage on hero levels and manage to push down mid tower and rax.Top tower gets pushed down and now Zenith's heroes start to farm the continuous supply of creeps from top and mid.eNe's SF and Doom meanwhile farm up nicely as well.eNe attempts to take down top but Zenith gets radiance on bear and executes the wl/thd/qop/tiny aoe combi nicely to fend off 3 eNe pushes into their base,scoring 4-5 kills each time and starts drawing a nice hero kill advantage(can't remember if they were leading in levels).eNe finally manages to take top rax and desperate, tiny using MOM manages to down down top rax and starts pounding on the base towers.eNe manages to kill some Zenith heroes with a 5v4 advantage and despite Zenith's attempts to buy time for the tiny, eNe manages to get the vs and ts to go back to defend and the SF finishes the throne off.

Inaccuracies may result as i watched this 5 days ago.

[d0minic]

i really thought zenith could won.

[<3dwarf]

they hold on quite well though=/

[Prince-of-Lies]

Its just 1 game lost though, no big deal really,they still have many more to play in the TFL.

[StripperA]

that match was long..........

[ruixiang]

hmm .. i bet westerners will be insulting singapore now .. bt gj guys !

[<3dwarf]

they dunno tp can tank tower or zenith misunderstood wad they said

[StripperA]

lol they probably didnt 0.0

[asle21]

think positive guys.. it's just a 1 loss, everybody experinced to be loss in a game...

[<3dwarf]

the shadow fiend crap, he gt battlefury.. reminds me of the guide on battlefury medusa

[genyaarikado123]

gg zenith.......

[StripperA]

lol he bored la..

[BaByWizZieE]

jiayou zenith .. sgreans always support u >.*

[StripperA]

yeah anything sg, u can count me in to support

[Segunda]

I don't think this is in TFL I think this is the tourney from MYM

regarding insulting you may read this thread in..
http://www.dotaportal.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=53805&st=0&start=0

but to me it is only one game and still Asian Dota Community still the best!!

[StripperA]

sg ppl are mad about dota~~

[genyaarikado123]

i read the mym forums and i tend to agree with wat they say.
sg clans like zenith r not exposed enuff to euro/us tactics like the one shown in zenith's defeat to scaf. because in sg, not many clans use that sort of lineup and tactic. even if they used, they r not experienced enuff in that situation.

[anything]

quite sad. i expected zenith to own. didnt expect them to perform so badly.

[anything]

europeans are insulting asians! :(

[StripperA]

pugna is a key in the scaf strat...the frekkin ward pwns aoe..

[<3dwarf]

actually i watch the mym replay against xqr, their zeus and sk really not bad, maybe the lagness cause our sg teams to lose, but stil they are gosu players lols

[StripperA]

sk with lag..its just pure headache when u try to do the blink epi combo..

[wakabake]

Not only the pugna wards...the 3 -1 - 1 too...
with 3 intel hero pushing top..and then switch to 0 -1 -4
with visage defending and farming for good item...the
4 intel do push with rush build item..forcing the other team to defend and stop farming....

their tactics was good..pugna plant ward and nether blast tower when ever he got the chance...and he was the meat for the intel team..with 3 bracer on...zeus help in support with arcane ring and spams.... dead prophet at the back together with shadow priest who retreat after swarm to cast silence incase of any blink in gangs or mass gang...

spam from far....zenith get mana flare by the wards...going in..they still get spam by the mana flare and spam from all over and silenced.....

at the last btm tower...we can see it was really hard for zenith to defend....
and u see the visage was not even used to help in the push....it was just flying around..farming...

And u realised in EU replays(not all but quite frequent)..they wack tower down asap...unlike local style...who prefer to down tower when they are confident enough for a push or when item build complete..

Local teams need some time to adapt...EU style is quite different...
Good luck~~for the teams~~~hope ya guys win a match soon~!
do it like ALT)duckie...~~ ^^

[StripperA]

we should pick a few pointers but not completely follow their style, its so unoriginal of us..ganking is still what sg do best

[<3dwarf]

actually they still able to gang quite well, esp when the whole team buy dagger, sg does dat too, not sure who copies who

[StripperA]

learn here learn there...but sg style of ganking is still unique

[<3dwarf]

erm not really la... im sure ang moh can tp assist better, dat is no doubt

[StripperA]

rmb the team that didnt know tp can def tower

[Ironfisto]

The replays are good research material. Shows the difference between ganking style vs pushing.

Gave me some idea to rework on my tennis theory.

[<3dwarf]

lols, no la, tp assist and tp tank tower diff logic

[StripperA]

The replays are good research material. Shows the difference between ganking style vs pushing.

Gave me some idea to rework on my tennis theory.

what's ur tennis theory?!

[Prince-of-Lies]

You can tell the timing and decisions of the Europeans/Americans are really good,they do the basics like tp assist and denying of towers very well,and know when to push/gank

[<3dwarf]

yeah, they are confident and they push when possible, not like sg like to drag and drag, in the end drag till lose

[Ironfisto]

I watched the Zenith vs Q replay. The Q team kept on pushing mid again and again. Zenith held them off in the first few attempts but finally got defeated.

My PC once told me, "If you send in a section to charge and all of them die, You better not be an idiot to send in your reserve section to charge in again".

That's what Q is doing, stubborn pushes. A miracle that they won.
Q, China style (China army force manpower is too much. So they can send in waves after waves to chiong in. Die nvm. In the end, mission still accomplish)

But SG low manpower, must use more brain to win.

[Prince-of-Lies]

yeah, they are confident and they push when possible, not like sg like to drag and drag, in the end drag till lose

my point was Europeans/Americans are good too, not SG lousy...

[genyaarikado123]

i feel tat zenith's drafts were wrong. to counter early pushing teams, aoe would be the best.

[<3dwarf]

ya.. but sg seems abit blur, maybe due to lag

[wakabake]

yep...we realised zenith draft or majority of our sg ganking style..revolve around ganging the other team with our early gamer and farming up our late gamer to do a push....

that's why we have problem facing early pushes when the other team do 3 to 4 intel on one lane...when late gamer are still not good enough to do much help....they are not really afraid of gangs unless u got a sk burrow epic or
anything that got instant wipe them out....

It's just like normal game....teching to tier 2 or tier 3..leave u valunerable to early rushes...our strategy is more like trying to catch the guy farming neutral creeps(harrass) while we tech..while the opponent strategy is tower rush~~~~ =x *normal game player should get what i mean...*

i seen in some EU replay..they got
omini to use his ulti which give a good couple of seconds to **** the intel hero with all u got...+ sk burrow epic....<--- effect not so bad..but i think something better could be done eh?

like someone who has mentioned... more aoe spell heroes can be considered to fight off early pushes from the opposit team....But who should we use???
And like u all said...sg style is ganking..what aoe heroes are also good for gang?

[StripperA]

sk,vs,veno all popular in sg lol

[Ant]

The notion that Asians are gankers while Euros/Americans are not is HORRIBLY FLAWED. For SG at least, and for the current scene.

[StripperA]

so they have begun to gank as well haha

[<3dwarf]

yeah, ang moh gank too..... u see their porn u noe le

[StripperA]

hardcore sia their gank

[<3dwarf]

lols.... it's sg dat learn ganking from them!

[StripperA]

yeah we softcore though

[genyaarikado123]

it isnt difficult to counter scaf's 5 intel early game push.

first of all u MUST have silencer.

secondly, i wun mention the hero. but that hero is one tat can push the enemy away, injure not 1 hero but several heroes with one of its spells. u should know who i am talking about.

the plan is to restrict their early game push. when they gather together, bring in a mix of aoe spells and individual high dmg attacks/spells.

[Ant]

Hindsight is 20/20.

[KcP.šìç[k]™]

keeper might be good(vs scaf), ice should use it instead of thd as delay can really hurt the ability of thd's ice path + dual breath

[StripperA]

Hindsight is 20/20.

that's suppose to be sarcastic?? relax, he just saying his views

[genyaarikado123]

nvm i dun blame him, hes jus sad he lost.
if losers know wat they r doing then they wun lose.

lol even kcp understood wat i meant.

[StripperA]

eh u shldn't namecall ppl as well..zzz

[Ant]

I'm trying to cut down on words here. It would be nice if you didn't take everything you didn't understand to be an insult.

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/42/messages/347.html

I think that link pretty much sums everything up. Or if you're simply too lazy to click it:

: : : : What does the expression "hindsight's 20-20" mean? Could someone explain?

: : : 20-20, more often written 20/20, is the standard for clear vision. When an eye doctor measures eyesight, a reading of 20/20 represents clarity. Hindsight, looking back on what has already happened, allows us to see clearly the course of action we should have taken, but perhaps didn't. So ... if you nag me with what I should have done yesterday, I will gently remind you that your hindsight is 20/20, but where was all this good advice when I needed it?

[StripperA]

just say what u want, the box is pretty big for words lol

[<3dwarf]

i guess he means dat it is easy to comment on everything when it has happened but when you actual play it, it will be much different. Correct me if im wrong

[vOnElith]

Who never loses before? Whats the ****ing big deal. lawl.
Lose? Let it go. Train harder. Come back stronger. Win. End of story.
Let's not be afraid of defeat. Taste defeat. Doesn't taste good? Grab it tight and shove it down your opponent's throat the next time round. Sounds good? yeah.

[<3dwarf]

quit dota.. end of story

[KcP.šìç[k]™]

lol dont worry, how can there be success without defeat. no quitting dota -.- singaporeans have the skill to > euros. its just the delay. col vs mi2 proved that right

[benfwL]

meh, a few games lost/ won dont say much. just dont sway with the wind though, makes you look like a rather *insert random vulgarity here* person.

i bet if sg had won the mym games, some of the people here would be like " oh yeah so we are the best, blahblah our consistent picks are blahblah superior "

in short, what are you trying to prove? nothing as i can see.

[<3dwarf]

lols.. cheer for our sg team, not discouraging them!

[StripperA]

cheers to both teams...as long as dota goes international, i think everyone will be happy...especially if it's recgonized internationally =)

[<3dwarf]

we watch replay enuf, dun talk too much or else they nix time dun release replay see u all how to comment

[wakabake]

not again...guys it is hard to judge someone reply simply by the words he wrote....things usually get distorted...and somebody end up unhappy...

we should go around this exchanging constructive views.Such as someone mentioned hmmz he thinks that keeper might be a good choice....etc.

It is flawed to assume that local style is ganking...etc

Don't do personal attacks...and take threads too seriously because not everyone of us can express our thoughts that well in words....We are all just trying to learn and improve rite~~~ ^^

[genyaarikado123]

for me the point of my discussion is only constructive feedback, nothing more or less than tat.

[ToFuBoi]

2x^2+5x-88= 0
(2x-11)(x+8)= 0
x=5.5, x=-8

1+1=2
2x1-1=1
99x99=10000-99-100=9801

[Ironfisto]

HP = 1000
Evasion = 25%
Dmg taken per hit = 750

Question: Prove that EHP increase is 33%

Solution : Find using probababilty and infinite series. Find convergence value.

I figured out how to prove that the series converges to 500. This will be ugly, but it can be done!

First of all, we have to explicitly state the series, of course. As explained in my last post, the probability of killing in n hits is (n-1)*(0.75)^2*(0.25)^(n-2), and the EHP bonus from killing in n hits is (n-2)*750. This means that the series we want is

S = (sum n=2 -> inf.) (.75)^2*(750) * (n-1)(n-2)(0.25)^(n-2).
Before we start, let's simplify our expressions by factoring out the constant (.75)^2*750, and choosing a new variable k = n-2. Hence,

Let series A = S/(750*.25^2) = (sum k=0 -> inf.) k(k+1)(.25)^k
As always, we find the sum of an infinite series by taking the limit of the ith partial sum A_i. We write:

A_i = (sum k=0 -> i) k(k+1)(.25)^k
and we note that

(.25)*A_i = (sum k=0 -> i) k(k+1)(.25)^(k+1) = (sum k=1 -> i+1) k(k-1)(.25)^k
Subtracting one series from the other, we get

A_i - (.25)A_i = (.75)A_i = ((sum k=0 -> i) 2k(.25)^k) - i(i+1)(.25)^(i+1)
When i -> inf. the last term goes to zero, so we can write

(1/2)(.75)A = (sum k=0 -> inf.) k(.25)^k
a new infinite series. Let B = (1/2)(.75)A = (sum k=0 -> inf.) k(.25)^k. Again, we consider the ith partial sum, and multiply by .25:

B_i = (sum k=0 -> i) k(.25)^k
(.25)B_i = (sum k=0 -> i) k(.25)^(k+1) = (sum k=1 -> i+1) (k-1)(.25)^k
B_i - (.25)B_i = (.75)B_i = ((sum k=1 -> i) (.25)^k) - i(.25)^(i+1)
Once again, as i -> inf. the last term goes to zero, so we may write

(.75)B = (sum i=1 -> inf.) (.25)^k = 1/3
B= 4/9
where we applied the formula S = a/(1-r) for an infinite geometric series (incidentally, that formula is derived by applying the same process of "multiply by the ratio and subtract" that we used twice above). To finish, we go back to S. We have B = 4/9 and B = (1/2)(.75)A, so A = 32/27. Finally, since A = S/(750*.75^2), we have S = 500 as desired!

Answer: 500/1500 = 0.33 => 33%


Mathcraft FTW.
You either answer right or wrong. Nothing in between.
You are an idiot if you carry on this discussion.

*time to dissapear, kthxbai

[d0minic]

2x^2+5x-88= 0
(2x-11)(x+8)= 0
x=5.5, x=-8

1+1=2
2x1-1=1
99x99=10000-99-100=9801


lol no link or

[Prince-of-Lies]

HP = 1000
Evasion = 25%
Dmg taken per hit = 750

Question: Prove that EHP increase is 33%

Solution : Find using probababilty and infinite series. Find convergence value.



Answer: 500/1500 = 0.33 => 33%


Mathcraft FTW.
You either answer right or wrong. Nothing in between.
You are an idiot if you carry on this discussion.

*time to dissapear, kthxbai


smlj lai de

[KcP.šìç[k]™]

proving effective hp. which means that a average hp with high armor owns high hp with lousy armor

[Ironfisto]

Nope.
I was proving comments/opinions proves nothing.
Maths proves 'something'.

So if someone wants to prove Zenith isnt as good as you think, come up with a quantitative reasoning. It makes more sense for a 1 out of 100 game won compared to 0 out of 1 game won.
*k im out of this discussion..

[ToFuBoi]

i proving that x = 5.5 or x = -8

[d0minic]

lol. no link to this thread. lol

[StripperA]

hahahaha mathcraft

[genyaarikado123]

firstly nobody is trying to prove whether zenith is good or bad.

wat ppl r interested is how is it possible to counter the teams tat beat zenith.

comments/feedback/opinions do not prove things, but it helps to prove things therefore it should be considered.